The Pikers Pit

Mike J wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20 2018 18:03 -

I have lived in the countryside all my life and spent for most of it working the sharp end of conservation.
I all that time I have never, ever, seen or heard of a magpie hunting small birds in the manner of the bird I eliminated.
My action is the same as I would use on a fox taking lambs, remove the problem and it cannot pass its hunting skills onto its offspring.

I appreciate some of you may find this thread a little distasteful, but there are times when the only solution is the one I employed.

Mike J wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20 2018 18:03 -

I have lived in the countryside all my life and spent for most of it working the sharp end of conservation.
I all that time I have never, ever, seen or heard of a magpie hunting small birds in the manner of the bird I eliminated.
My action is the same as I would use on a fox taking lambs, remove the problem and it cannot pass its hunting skills onto its offspring.

I appreciate some of you may find this thread a little distasteful, but there are times when the only solution is the one I employed.

Mike J wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20 2018 18:03 -

I have lived in the countryside all my life and spent for most of it working the sharp end of conservation.
I all that time I have never, ever, seen or heard of a magpie hunting small birds in the manner of the bird I eliminated.
My action is the same as I would use on a fox taking lambs, remove the problem and it cannot pass its hunting skills onto its offspring.

I appreciate some of you may find this thread a little distasteful, but there are times when the only solution is the one I employed.

Mike J wrote: ↑Sun Jan 21 2018 10:51 -

Hi Kev
The problem was a change in this particular birds behaviour.
You say "eating songbirds for millennia".
This statement is totally incorrect.
Taking nestlings and eggs yes, hunting down and catching small small birds in flight is not normal magpie behaviour as I have clearly highlight.
Not attacking birds at my feed point, just small birds generally.

Since it incident I have spoken to a highly qualified Government advisor on ecology and two gamekeepers with over 70years experience, asking each if they had ever witnessed or heard of such behaviour, all gave the same negative reply.

As for tethered goats and tigers, best we not go there while many members deploy live-baits.

Mike J wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22 2018 09:30 -

Wat,
You are wrong to imply the BASC idecides what species are 'vermin' (former WAGBI member from aged 14 through to BASC for 36years). However I know they would investigate reports of malpractice by a shoot owner should sufficient evidence be provided.

I believe 'vermin' were originally specified by NCC (EN and now NE) in consultation with MAFF (disolved and absorbed into DEFRA), it certainly wasn't the RSPB (who have controlled foxes and predatory birds in similar situations as my example).


Owen, thanks for your reply.
Could this indicate a change in behaviour or the odd isolated incident.
Only time will tell.

Mike J wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22 2018 09:30 -

Wat,
You are wrong to imply the BASC idecides what species are 'vermin' (former WAGBI member from aged 14 through to BASC for 36years). However I know they would investigate reports of malpractice by a shoot owner should sufficient evidence be provided.

I believe 'vermin' were originally specified by NCC (EN and now NE) in consultation with MAFF (disolved and absorbed into DEFRA), it certainly wasn't the RSPB (who have controlled foxes and predatory birds in similar situations as my example).


Owen, thanks for your reply.
Could this indicate a change in behaviour or the odd isolated incident.
Only time will tell.

Kev Berry wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22 2018 21:54 -

interesting reading this, maybe the corvid haters might like to admit they need a change of mind

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordp ... -the-time/

Wat Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23 2018 06:31 -

Kev Berry wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22 2018 21:54 -

interesting reading this, maybe the corvid haters might like to admit they need a change of mind

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordp ... -the-time/

I have no gripe with shooting folk

Nobby C wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23 2018 18:43 -

Wat Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23 2018 06:31 -

Kev Berry wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22 2018 21:54 -

interesting reading this, maybe the corvid haters might like to admit they need a change of mind

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordp ... -the-time/

I have no gripe with shooting folk

Strewth!

Wat Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23 2018 06:31 -

Kev Berry wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22 2018 21:54 -

interesting reading this, maybe the corvid haters might like to admit they need a change of mind

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordp ... -the-time/

I have no gripe with shooting folk Kev, in fact I have done a fair bit myself in my younger days (rough shooting) but anyone who tries to pretend that the majority of shooting related people in the rural community adhere to fair and efficient control of vermin is either deluded or exaggerating his/her knowledge and experience of the sport, it's as simple as that!

Wat Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23 2018 19:29 -

Nobby C wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23 2018 18:43 -

Wat Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23 2018 06:31 -

Kev Berry wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22 2018 21:54 -

interesting reading this, maybe the corvid haters might like to admit they need a change of mind

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordp ... -the-time/

I have no gripe with shooting folk

Strewth!

Took me five minutes to work out what you meant!

...Eats shoots and leaves?

Will Smith wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23 2018 21:06 -

Wat Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23 2018 19:29 -

Nobby C wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23 2018 18:43 -

Wat Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23 2018 06:31 -

Kev Berry wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22 2018 21:54 -

interesting reading this, maybe the corvid haters might like to admit they need a change of mind

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordp ... -the-time/

I have no gripe with shooting folk

Strewth!

Took me five minutes to work out what you meant!

...Eats shoots and leaves?

What does he mean ? It went straight over my head !

Will

Mike J wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24 2018 21:13 -

Wat Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23 2018 06:31 -

Kev Berry wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22 2018 21:54 -

interesting reading this, maybe the corvid haters might like to admit they need a change of mind

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordp ... -the-time/

I have no gripe with shooting folk Kev, in fact I have done a fair bit myself in my younger days (rough shooting) but anyone who tries to pretend that the majority of shooting related people in the rural community adhere to fair and efficient control of vermin is either deluded or exaggerating his/her knowledge and experience of the sport, it's as simple as that!

Mike J wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24 2018 21:39 -

Wat Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23 2018 06:31 -

Kev Berry wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22 2018 21:54 -

interesting reading this, maybe the corvid haters might like to admit they need a change of mind

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordp ... -the-time/

I have no gripe with shooting folk Kev, in fact I have done a fair bit myself in my younger days (rough shooting) but anyone who tries to pretend that the majority of shooting related people in the rural community adhere to fair and efficient control of vermin is either deluded or exaggerating his/her knowledge and experience of the sport, it's as simple as that!

Nail and head come to mind.

Kev,
Not trying to kid anyone.
I was referring to the BASC not shoot owners.
People who own a grouse moor (who may or may not even reside in this country) or their employees may have questions to answer but if they are not members of BASC they could simply ignore enquiries should they feel so inclined.
The disappearance of Hen Harriers is well documented and whoever is to blame it has provided an effective means for Nature Conservation Charities seeking to raise money from the general public.

The most effective combination in my experience has been the Wildlife Crime Unit working in conjunction with the RSPB Investigations Team.

Kev Berry wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24 2018 23:40 -

Mike J wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24 2018 21:39 -

Wat Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23 2018 06:31 -

Kev Berry wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22 2018 21:54 -

interesting reading this, maybe the corvid haters might like to admit they need a change of mind

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordp ... -the-time/

I have no gripe with shooting folk Kev, in fact I have done a fair bit myself in my younger days (rough shooting) but anyone who tries to pretend that the majority of shooting related people in the rural community adhere to fair and efficient control of vermin is either deluded or exaggerating his/her knowledge and experience of the sport, it's as simple as that!

Nail and head come to mind.

Kev,
Not trying to kid anyone.
I was referring to the BASC not shoot owners.
People who own a grouse moor (who may or may not even reside in this country) or their employees may have questions to answer but if they are not members of BASC they could simply ignore enquiries should they feel so inclined.
The disappearance of Hen Harriers is well documented and whoever is to blame it has provided an effective means for Nature Conservation Charities seeking to raise money from the general public.

The most effective combination in my experience has been the Wildlife Crime Unit working in conjunction with the RSPB Investigations Team.

"The most effective combination in my experience has been the Wildlife Crime Unit working in conjunction with the RSPB Investigations Team".

never mind YOUR experience Mike, you seem to live in a very ordered law abiding world. The wild life crime unit seem to do as they like, or maybe its the "shoots" links to the establishment that get the strings pulled to drop any charges. The RSPB are repeatedly banging their heads against a very hard wall, you don't have to be Einstein to work out who shoots and poisons birds of prey on grouse moors. Even when some keepers do get pulled, they just get a slap on the wrist--maybe the local magistrate has a gun on that shoot?
Its obvious you havnt properly read the links I put up---they show that practically ALL complaints about radio tagged marsh harriers, golden eagles etc suddenly "disappearing" on grouse moors get brushed under the carpet.

Mike J wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26 2018 12:00 -

Kev Berry wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24 2018 23:40 -

Mike J wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24 2018 21:39 -

Wat Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23 2018 06:31 -

Kev Berry wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22 2018 21:54 -

interesting reading this, maybe the corvid haters might like to admit they need a change of mind

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordp ... -the-time/

I have no gripe with shooting folk Kev, in fact I have done a fair bit myself in my younger days (rough shooting) but anyone who tries to pretend that the majority of shooting related people in the rural community adhere to fair and efficient control of vermin is either deluded or exaggerating his/her knowledge and experience of the sport, it's as simple as that!

Nail and head come to mind.

Kev,
Not trying to kid anyone.
I was referring to the BASC not shoot owners.
People who own a grouse moor (who may or may not even reside in this country) or their employees may have questions to answer but if they are not members of BASC they could simply ignore enquiries should they feel so inclined.
The disappearance of Hen Harriers is well documented and whoever is to blame it has provided an effective means for Nature Conservation Charities seeking to raise money from the general public.

The most effective combination in my experience has been the Wildlife Crime Unit working in conjunction with the RSPB Investigations Team.

"The most effective combination in my experience has been the Wildlife Crime Unit working in conjunction with the RSPB Investigations Team".

never mind YOUR experience Mike, you seem to live in a very ordered law abiding world. The wild life crime unit seem to do as they like, or maybe its the "shoots" links to the establishment that get the strings pulled to drop any charges. The RSPB are repeatedly banging their heads against a very hard wall, you don't have to be Einstein to work out who shoots and poisons birds of prey on grouse moors. Even when some keepers do get pulled, they just get a slap on the wrist--maybe the local magistrate has a gun on that shoot?
Its obvious you havnt properly read the links I put up---they show that practically ALL complaints about radio tagged marsh harriers, golden eagles etc suddenly "disappearing" on grouse moors get brushed under the carpet.

I worked at the sharp end of conservation and have experienced firsthand of the problems encountered when trying to collect sufficient evidence in order to solve wildlife crimes. I have even used my own money to pay rewards for 'evidence leading to a prosecution' with success I should add.

Investigating cases of poisoned birds is very complex and fraught with procedural regulations.
Every case I have worked on has failed because of lack of sufficient evidence, despite finding the body and the poison being identified.
Problems begin with finding the time for a search (on what, a suspicion) where to search, finding the poison site, clearly establishing cause of death and the poison used, searches of property and interviews and as you will appreciate all this takes time, lots of time, many many weeks in fact.
The CPS have difficult decisions to make and are required to stand a more than reasonable chance of success before a case is brought before the courts.

You have a clear liaison establish with your local constabulary so perhaps your concerns regarding the Wildlife Crime Unit to which you refer should be addressed to them.

Kev Berry wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26 2018 13:38 -

Mike J wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26 2018 12:00 -

Kev Berry wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24 2018 23:40 -

Mike J wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24 2018 21:39 -

Wat Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23 2018 06:31 -

Kev Berry wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22 2018 21:54 -

interesting reading this, maybe the corvid haters might like to admit they need a change of mind

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordp ... -the-time/

I have no gripe with shooting folk Kev, in fact I have done a fair bit myself in my younger days (rough shooting) but anyone who tries to pretend that the majority of shooting related people in the rural community adhere to fair and efficient control of vermin is either deluded or exaggerating his/her knowledge and experience of the sport, it's as simple as that!

Nail and head come to mind.

Kev,
Not trying to kid anyone.
I was referring to the BASC not shoot owners.
People who own a grouse moor (who may or may not even reside in this country) or their employees may have questions to answer but if they are not members of BASC they could simply ignore enquiries should they feel so inclined.
The disappearance of Hen Harriers is well documented and whoever is to blame it has provided an effective means for Nature Conservation Charities seeking to raise money from the general public.

The most effective combination in my experience has been the Wildlife Crime Unit working in conjunction with the RSPB Investigations Team.

"The most effective combination in my experience has been the Wildlife Crime Unit working in conjunction with the RSPB Investigations Team".

never mind YOUR experience Mike, you seem to live in a very ordered law abiding world. The wild life crime unit seem to do as they like, or maybe its the "shoots" links to the establishment that get the strings pulled to drop any charges. The RSPB are repeatedly banging their heads against a very hard wall, you don't have to be Einstein to work out who shoots and poisons birds of prey on grouse moors. Even when some keepers do get pulled, they just get a slap on the wrist--maybe the local magistrate has a gun on that shoot?
Its obvious you havnt properly read the links I put up---they show that practically ALL complaints about radio tagged marsh harriers, golden eagles etc suddenly "disappearing" on grouse moors get brushed under the carpet.

I worked at the sharp end of conservation and have experienced firsthand of the problems encountered when trying to collect sufficient evidence in order to solve wildlife crimes. I have even used my own money to pay rewards for 'evidence leading to a prosecution' with success I should add.

Investigating cases of poisoned birds is very complex and fraught with procedural regulations.
Every case I have worked on has failed because of lack of sufficient evidence, despite finding the body and the poison being identified.
Problems begin with finding the time for a search (on what, a suspicion) where to search, finding the poison site, clearly establishing cause of death and the poison used, searches of property and interviews and as you will appreciate all this takes time, lots of time, many many weeks in fact.
The CPS have difficult decisions to make and are required to stand a more than reasonable chance of success before a case is brought before the courts.

You have a clear liaison establish with your local constabulary so perhaps your concerns regarding the Wildlife Crime Unit to which you refer should be addressed to them.

did you even bother to look at the links I put up Mike ?
If you had you would have seen such bodies as the RSPB /RSPCA failing to get prosecutions despite compelling evidence---even video evidence of harriers being shot and the keeper picking the bird up

and you think me contacting my local constabulary will make them change their minds

The evidence that raptors are being killed wholesale on grouse moors is incontrovertible ---radio tags suddenly stopping working when the birds are on the moor (they send a signal out when batts are low--they don't stop suddenly) poisoned birds found, hidden stash's of poison found, pole traps found with raptors in them, multiple bodies of dead raptors found together that were shot or poisoned,

and how very strange there is never enough evidence for an arrest.
Just who do you think is doing this poisoning and shooting? Its not joe public is it?
The only difficulty the CPS has in bringing these cases to court is finding a daft enough scapegoat to prosecute the high ups who own these moors/shoots

Andrew Croft wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27 2018 12:46 -

" I can assure you it is not as unequivocal as you imply. "

You're new here right ?