Technology for Zander

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micky dolan
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Technology for Zander

Post by micky dolan »

The technology in this video is impressive and some great Zander caught .
But is this style of targeted fishing for you ?
Yes I've used an old hummingbird but more as a feature finder perhaps it's that I'm mainly a deadbait angler so this isn't for me .

The fishing starts at around 7 minutes ...

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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad »

Very clever!

Cheers, Alan
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by Fentiger01 »

That is a great video to watch, they catch some amazing Zander. Rasmus is a talented lad for sure, some of the fish he's caught are incredible. He seems to have worked out a method that works superbly well on big continental stillwaters, it's exciting to watch and I can only imagine the tension while you're sat in the boat watching it play out.

There's a couple of his points that resonate with me but my main takeaway is that he notes that the big fish are often in midwater, Dave Pugh in his excellent lure book mentioned the same fact, that bigger fish are often happy to be higher in the water than the smaller Zeds. This is totally contrary to most thoughts on the topic I'd suggest, I'd think that the vast majority of anglers fish their lures in the bottom couple of feet of the water they are targeting. Maybe time to fish higher up in the water but I guess that depends upon the depth of the water you're fishing.

I love Zander angling, loads of food for thought. :cool: :thumbs:
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by PredPlus »

Fentiger01 wrote: Thu Nov 21 2024 21:22 -
That is a great video to watch, they catch some amazing Zander. Rasmus is a talented lad for sure, some of the fish he's caught are incredible. He seems to have worked out a method that works superbly well on big continental stillwaters, it's exciting to watch and I can only imagine the tension while you're sat in the boat watching it play out.

There's a couple of his points that resonate with me but my main takeaway is that he notes that the big fish are often in midwater, Dave Pugh in his excellent lure book mentioned the same fact, that bigger fish are often happy to be higher in the water than the smaller Zeds. This is totally contrary to most thoughts on the topic I'd suggest, I'd think that the vast majority of anglers fish their lures in the bottom couple of feet of the water they are targeting. Maybe time to fish higher up in the water but I guess that depends upon the depth of the water you're fishing.

I love Zander angling, loads of food for thought. :cool: :thumbs:
A lot of Zander have been caught on trolled crankbaits and even Dawgs on the Severn. Those baits were midwater not bottom bouncing. As you dont with an expensive Shadrap or MagDawg. Dave mentions it, Sebs 14 for example?
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by davelumb »

I watched some and it was interesting. Not as easy as might be imagined and requires good interpretation of screens, and excellent boat control. I can see the appeal of fishing that way. Not that I could afford to do it!
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by Fentiger01 »

PredPlus wrote: Thu Nov 21 2024 22:03 -
Fentiger01 wrote: Thu Nov 21 2024 21:22 -
That is a great video to watch, they catch some amazing Zander. Rasmus is a talented lad for sure, some of the fish he's caught are incredible. He seems to have worked out a method that works superbly well on big continental stillwaters, it's exciting to watch and I can only imagine the tension while you're sat in the boat watching it play out.

There's a couple of his points that resonate with me but my main takeaway is that he notes that the big fish are often in midwater, Dave Pugh in his excellent lure book mentioned the same fact, that bigger fish are often happy to be higher in the water than the smaller Zeds. This is totally contrary to most thoughts on the topic I'd suggest, I'd think that the vast majority of anglers fish their lures in the bottom couple of feet of the water they are targeting. Maybe time to fish higher up in the water but I guess that depends upon the depth of the water you're fishing.

I love Zander angling, loads of food for thought. :cool: :thumbs:
A lot of Zander have been caught on trolled crankbaits and even Dawgs on the Severn. Those baits were midwater not bottom bouncing. As you dont with an expensive Shadrap or MagDawg. Dave mentions it, Sebs 14 for example?
Yeh mate, that was the point I was getting at. :thumbs:
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by Fentiger01 »

davelumb wrote: Thu Nov 21 2024 22:03 -
I watched some and it was interesting. Not as easy as might be imagined and requires good interpretation of screens, and excellent boat control. I can see the appeal of fishing that way. Not that I could afford to do it!
I thought two things, boat control and huge expense. :laughs: :thumbs:
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by davelumb »

Fentiger01 wrote: Thu Nov 21 2024 22:08 -
davelumb wrote: Thu Nov 21 2024 22:03 -
I watched some and it was interesting. Not as easy as might be imagined and requires good interpretation of screens, and excellent boat control. I can see the appeal of fishing that way. Not that I could afford to do it!
I thought two things, boat control and huge expense. :laughs: :thumbs:
:grin:
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by Steve Dennington »

I was re-reading Watto's book and the bit about marker baits was interesting. In the areas where it was slow going, he'd put marker baits out (no hooks) just to see if they got taken or not. The poly floats had been seen moving around, but he wrote that he wouldn't ever have cast at one, deeming it "unethical" to pinpoint individual fish.

Maybe I'm missing out, but it seems to remove the element of the unknown, which is the best bit! That hit on the lure that nearly rips the rod from your hands when you weren't expecting it.

That said, I loved this on the Dreamcast many moons ago :grin:

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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad »

Fentiger01 wrote: Thu Nov 21 2024 21:22 -
That is a great video to watch, they catch some amazing Zander. Rasmus is a talented lad for sure, some of the fish he's caught are incredible. He seems to have worked out a method that works superbly well on big continental stillwaters, it's exciting to watch and I can only imagine the tension while you're sat in the boat watching it play out.

There's a couple of his points that resonate with me but my main takeaway is that he notes that the big fish are often in midwater, Dave Pugh in his excellent lure book mentioned the same fact, that bigger fish are often happy to be higher in the water than the smaller Zeds. This is totally contrary to most thoughts on the topic I'd suggest, I'd think that the vast majority of anglers fish their lures in the bottom couple of feet of the water they are targeting. Maybe time to fish higher up in the water but I guess that depends upon the depth of the water you're fishing.

I love Zander angling, loads of food for thought. :cool: :thumbs:
A deep water thing on big waters where preyfish spend their time resting mid water after dark?

Cheers, Alan
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by Mark Phillips »

micky dolan wrote: Thu Nov 21 2024 11:28 -
The technology in this video is impressive and some great Zander caught .
But is this style of targeted fishing for you ?
Yes I've used an old hummingbird but more as a feature finder perhaps it's that I'm mainly a deadbait angler so this isn't for me .

The fishing starts at around 7 minutes ...

I'm using the same kit, for pelagic fishing it's simply a game changer. My view is that the odds are so stacked against you on some waters, than any edge you can find to shorten the path to success is worth it.

Another use for live sonar is to scout the water in front if you by putting the LVS34 transducer into forward mode. We use that feature all the time when drifting and casting. You can see where the depth changes and the features in front of you in a lot of detail. You can also see your lure dropping through the water column and if you angle the beam onto the line of the cast, watch it coming back all the way to the boat. It certainly enhances how you fish and combine that with a bow mounted, GPS guided electric trolling motor, you're next level in terms of boat control and being able to fish spots more effectively. I love the technology. I think I mentioned this before, but we were out last month and were watching on the screen a shoal of bream feeding on the bottom of a reservoir. You could see them tails up hoovering the bottom. Last trip out, we had a good laugh watching shoals of tiny perch all chasing after my mates lures. Probably happens a lot, just not seen someone get a follow off 50 odd fish at once!
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad »

Mark Phillips wrote: Fri Nov 22 2024 21:47 -
micky dolan wrote: Thu Nov 21 2024 11:28 -
The technology in this video is impressive and some great Zander caught .
But is this style of targeted fishing for you ?
Yes I've used an old hummingbird but more as a feature finder perhaps it's that I'm mainly a deadbait angler so this isn't for me .

The fishing starts at around 7 minutes ...

I'm using the same kit, for pelagic fishing it's simply a game changer. My view is that the odds are so stacked against you on some waters, than any edge you can find to shorten the path to success is worth it.

Another use for live sonar is to scout the water in front if you by putting the LVS34 transducer into forward mode. We use that feature all the time when drifting and casting. You can see where the depth changes and the features in front of you in a lot of detail. You can also see your lure dropping through the water column and if you angle the beam onto the line of the cast, watch it coming back all the way to the boat. It certainly enhances how you fish and combine that with a bow mounted, GPS guided electric trolling motor, you're next level in terms of boat control and being able to fish spots more effectively. I love the technology. I think I mentioned this before, but we were out last month and were watching on the screen a shoal of bream feeding on the bottom of a reservoir. You could see them tails up hoovering the bottom. Last trip out, we had a good laugh watching shoals of tiny perch all chasing after my mates lures. Probably happens a lot, just not seen someone get a follow off 50 odd fish at once!
Thats all very well, Mark but its still cheating! :laughs:

Cheers, Alan
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by Alex Fox »

It's definitely very interesting, and I can see the reasoning of why and why not it should be used, the expense is a little extreme to me

But everyone to their own :smile:
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by Mark Phillips »

cookiesdaughtersdad wrote: Fri Nov 22 2024 21:59 -
Mark Phillips wrote: Fri Nov 22 2024 21:47 -
micky dolan wrote: Thu Nov 21 2024 11:28 -
The technology in this video is impressive and some great Zander caught .
But is this style of targeted fishing for you ?
Yes I've used an old hummingbird but more as a feature finder perhaps it's that I'm mainly a deadbait angler so this isn't for me .

The fishing starts at around 7 minutes ...

I'm using the same kit, for pelagic fishing it's simply a game changer. My view is that the odds are so stacked against you on some waters, than any edge you can find to shorten the path to success is worth it.

Another use for live sonar is to scout the water in front if you by putting the LVS34 transducer into forward mode. We use that feature all the time when drifting and casting. You can see where the depth changes and the features in front of you in a lot of detail. You can also see your lure dropping through the water column and if you angle the beam onto the line of the cast, watch it coming back all the way to the boat. It certainly enhances how you fish and combine that with a bow mounted, GPS guided electric trolling motor, you're next level in terms of boat control and being able to fish spots more effectively. I love the technology. I think I mentioned this before, but we were out last month and were watching on the screen a shoal of bream feeding on the bottom of a reservoir. You could see them tails up hoovering the bottom. Last trip out, we had a good laugh watching shoals of tiny perch all chasing after my mates lures. Probably happens a lot, just not seen someone get a follow off 50 odd fish at once!
Thats all very well, Mark but its still cheating! :laughs:

Cheers, Alan
Yes, very :laughs: How can it be cheating though, when by definition, cheating is 'to act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage'. It's just using technology to help you improve your fishing. I remember people saying using a bait boat was 'cheating'. It is interesting to me that some people who use fishfinders, but don't have live imaging, seem to agree with you Alan. I've had a few snide remarks on the jetty as we set the boat up, usually from fishery staff or trout anglers and we just shrug them off. It is, what it is, an evolution in technology and still won't catch you fish that aren't active. But hey, at least you get to see them ignoring you :lol:
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by Mark Phillips »

Alex Fox wrote: Sat Nov 23 2024 12:34 -
It's definitely very interesting, and I can see the reasoning of why and why not it should be used, the expense is a little extreme to me

But everyone to their own :smile:
It's over-priced, no doubts about that. Take a top end fishfinder from Garmin, Lowrance or Humminbrird, it's crazy they can cost up to five times the cost of a basic iPad and I am sure the companies that make them are laughing their balls off.
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad »

Mark Phillips wrote: Sat Nov 23 2024 18:31 -
cookiesdaughtersdad wrote: Fri Nov 22 2024 21:59 -
Mark Phillips wrote: Fri Nov 22 2024 21:47 -
micky dolan wrote: Thu Nov 21 2024 11:28 -
The technology in this video is impressive and some great Zander caught .
But is this style of targeted fishing for you ?
Yes I've used an old hummingbird but more as a feature finder perhaps it's that I'm mainly a deadbait angler so this isn't for me .

The fishing starts at around 7 minutes ...

I'm using the same kit, for pelagic fishing it's simply a game changer. My view is that the odds are so stacked against you on some waters, than any edge you can find to shorten the path to success is worth it.

Another use for live sonar is to scout the water in front if you by putting the LVS34 transducer into forward mode. We use that feature all the time when drifting and casting. You can see where the depth changes and the features in front of you in a lot of detail. You can also see your lure dropping through the water column and if you angle the beam onto the line of the cast, watch it coming back all the way to the boat. It certainly enhances how you fish and combine that with a bow mounted, GPS guided electric trolling motor, you're next level in terms of boat control and being able to fish spots more effectively. I love the technology. I think I mentioned this before, but we were out last month and were watching on the screen a shoal of bream feeding on the bottom of a reservoir. You could see them tails up hoovering the bottom. Last trip out, we had a good laugh watching shoals of tiny perch all chasing after my mates lures. Probably happens a lot, just not seen someone get a follow off 50 odd fish at once!
Thats all very well, Mark but its still cheating! :laughs:

Cheers, Alan
Yes, very :laughs: How can it be cheating though, when by definition, cheating is 'to act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage'. It's just using technology to help you improve your fishing. I remember people saying using a bait boat was 'cheating'. It is interesting to me that some people who use fishfinders, but don't have live imaging, seem to agree with you Alan. I've had a few snide remarks on the jetty as we set the boat up, usually from fishery staff or trout anglers and we just shrug them off. It is, what it is, an evolution in technology and still won't catch you fish that aren't active. But hey, at least you get to see them ignoring you :lol:
If you took modern rods ,reels and lines back to the day of, Walker they may have said that was cheating when what they were using could barely cast out of their own shadows !

Cheers, Alan
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by PredPlus »

Steve Dennington wrote: Thu Nov 21 2024 23:12 -
I was re-reading Watto's book and the bit about marker baits was interesting. In the areas where it was slow going, he'd put marker baits out (no hooks) just to see if they got taken or not. The poly floats had been seen moving around, but he wrote that he wouldn't ever have cast at one, deeming it "unethical" to pinpoint individual fish.

Maybe I'm missing out, but it seems to remove the element of the unknown, which is the best bit! That hit on the lure that nearly rips the rod from your hands when you weren't expecting it.

That said, I loved this on the Dreamcast many moons ago :grin:

Remember the Mick Brown story, where he did the same and saw the polystyrene block heading towards his bait, zig zagging as towed by a big pike, and it then took the proper bait. Cant remember how big.
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by andrew_nagel »

I fished with a mate on Sunday and he told me that Live Scope tech will be banned in the US Bass Masters tournaments from 2026. Considering that's the premier tournament of the most lucrative sport-fishing market in the US, it will be a kick in the balls to the manufacturers. The influence on sales will be interesting to see. Will water-controlling authorities/clubs follow?
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by PredPlus »

andrew_nagel wrote: Wed Dec 04 2024 23:17 -
I fished with a mate on Sunday and he told me that Live Scope tech will be banned in the US Bass Masters tournaments from 2026. Considering that's the premier tournament of the most lucrative sport-fishing market in the US, it will be a kick in the balls to the manufacturers. The influence on sales will be interesting to see. Will water-controlling authorities/clubs follow?
Thats only because is too effective, too efficient, and the tech has reached the point as in Grand Prix racing or the Olympics where some innovations are too advantageous to the user to be "fair" to others. I dont see how that is relevant to the average recreational angler and boat owner. Have they proceeded to limit screens to 60" per boat, so 5 x 12" units? Plus I also saw mention of new rules on boat length and engine size?
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by delboy »

Of course things need to be limited......................say you were in a pike match on a ressie somewhere, and you turn up with your old rowing boat and drift a few deadbaits around and matey turns up with £10,000 worth of fish finding equipment, you are f******d, money again ..
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by Carlperkins »

Not really
Seeing them doesn’t mean they are feeding
That Perkins !!! 😂
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by cookiesdaughtersdad »

The basic finder Im using now ( Garmin striker) off the boat has definitely put me on fish and compared to some of the stuff available its basically a plumbing float, at what point is the tech going to far? for some it will never be far enough which is fine by me :thumbs:

Cheers, Alan
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by dropped_run »

I’ve been refraining on this thread a while. I’ve got mixed views on the subject.

I’ve been fishing like in the video since 2016. Started off with what would now be considered a basic 7” finder and it’s grown from there.
I’ve been lucky to go out to Europe on half a dozen occasions in Sweden and Holland to do this with some of the top guys and it was fairly eye opening.
I enjoy the whole package, boat control, lure control, reading the wind etc to get a lure in place over a moving or static “target”. It’s fun, and infuriating at the same time.

It’s a lot harder over here with our weather and a Coulam with a 4hp engine than a heavily wooded lake in Sweden with no wind on a boat designed for the method. How the Dutch do it with their weather is incredible to watch. It’s a skillset. It’s not “easy” in any way.

Having better tech 100% puts more fish in the boat. That’s undeniable. Having better tech also makes you see just how many fish are fundamentally uncatchable, on lures at least, on some days.

Using Grafham as an example, there are days when there is literally nothing I can do to make them hit a lure. And there are days where they hit baits readily- but not for everyone. An example of this was me in one boat and two extremely experienced mates in another. I had 24, they had 1. They’ve done this in reverse to me as well- it’s just illustrating how you need to adapt on the day and some days you work it out and others you don’t.

Fishing is fishing. Just dropping a bait in vaguely the right area isn’t enough. Same as just chucking a lure out and reeling it in. Yeah you’ll catch fish but other people will always catch more with a bit of thought.

There’s this weird idea that having livescope just means you’ll empty the place. It’s not true. It helps but you still need to know what to do on the day. Otherwise to use Andrew’s example of the US bass scene, every fish in the lake would get caught in every tournament.

That all being said, my livescope comes out maybe half a dozen days a year now. I’m over sitting staring at a screen all season. Been there, done that etc- I’d much rather be out at 3am in the pitch black casting lures for zander. But that’s just me. I’m antisocial.
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by delboy »

Carlperkins wrote: Thu Dec 05 2024 12:55 -
Not really
Seeing them doesn’t mean they are feeding
Of course boy , but if you have all your gizmo's telling you there is nothing there then you will move untill all the red lights start flashing telling you there are some fish down there, THEN they might or might not feed , but at least they are there.
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by Carlperkins »

I mainly use my finder for depth,
And finding bait fish, find them and the pike will be very near
That Perkins !!! 😂
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by andrew_nagel »

I use mine for quite different things on different days... like using the trails in my GPS prove it wasn't me poaching. :eek: :suspect:
Last edited by andrew_nagel on Fri Dec 06 2024 00:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by Mark Phillips »

dropped_run wrote: Thu Dec 05 2024 14:25 -
I’ve been refraining on this thread a while. I’ve got mixed views on the subject.

I’ve been fishing like in the video since 2016. Started off with what would now be considered a basic 7” finder and it’s grown from there.
I’ve been lucky to go out to Europe on half a dozen occasions in Sweden and Holland to do this with some of the top guys and it was fairly eye opening.
I enjoy the whole package, boat control, lure control, reading the wind etc to get a lure in place over a moving or static “target”. It’s fun, and infuriating at the same time.

It’s a lot harder over here with our weather and a Coulam with a 4hp engine than a heavily wooded lake in Sweden with no wind on a boat designed for the method. How the Dutch do it with their weather is incredible to watch. It’s a skillset. It’s not “easy” in any way.

Having better tech 100% puts more fish in the boat. That’s undeniable. Having better tech also makes you see just how many fish are fundamentally uncatchable, on lures at least, on some days.

Using Grafham as an example, there are days when there is literally nothing I can do to make them hit a lure. And there are days where they hit baits readily- but not for everyone. An example of this was me in one boat and two extremely experienced mates in another. I had 24, they had 1. They’ve done this in reverse to me as well- it’s just illustrating how you need to adapt on the day and some days you work it out and others you don’t.

Fishing is fishing. Just dropping a bait in vaguely the right area isn’t enough. Same as just chucking a lure out and reeling it in. Yeah you’ll catch fish but other people will always catch more with a bit of thought.

There’s this weird idea that having livescope just means you’ll empty the place. It’s not true. It helps but you still need to know what to do on the day. Otherwise to use Andrew’s example of the US bass scene, every fish in the lake would get caught in every tournament.

That all being said, my livescope comes out maybe half a dozen days a year now. I’m over sitting staring at a screen all season. Been there, done that etc- I’d much rather be out at 3am in the pitch black casting lures for zander. But that’s just me. I’m antisocial.
Excellent post! Very well put and I concur with you on every level.
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by J Nix »

Mark Phillips wrote: Sat Nov 23 2024 18:31 -
cookiesdaughtersdad wrote: Fri Nov 22 2024 21:59 -
Mark Phillips wrote: Fri Nov 22 2024 21:47 -
micky dolan wrote: Thu Nov 21 2024 11:28 -
The technology in this video is impressive and some great Zander caught .
But is this style of targeted fishing for you ?
Yes I've used an old hummingbird but more as a feature finder perhaps it's that I'm mainly a deadbait angler so this isn't for me .

The fishing starts at around 7 minutes ...

I'm using the same kit, for pelagic fishing it's simply a game changer. My view is that the odds are so stacked against you on some waters, than any edge you can find to shorten the path to success is worth it.

Another use for live sonar is to scout the water in front if you by putting the LVS34 transducer into forward mode. We use that feature all the time when drifting and casting. You can see where the depth changes and the features in front of you in a lot of detail. You can also see your lure dropping through the water column and if you angle the beam onto the line of the cast, watch it coming back all the way to the boat. It certainly enhances how you fish and combine that with a bow mounted, GPS guided electric trolling motor, you're next level in terms of boat control and being able to fish spots more effectively. I love the technology. I think I mentioned this before, but we were out last month and were watching on the screen a shoal of bream feeding on the bottom of a reservoir. You could see them tails up hoovering the bottom. Last trip out, we had a good laugh watching shoals of tiny perch all chasing after my mates lures. Probably happens a lot, just not seen someone get a follow off 50 odd fish at once!
Thats all very well, Mark but its still cheating! :laughs:

Cheers, Alan
hey, at least you get to see them ignoring you :lol:
:laughs: :laughs: :laughs:
The dildo of consequences rarely arrives lubed
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Carlperkins
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by Carlperkins »

andrew_nagel wrote: Thu Dec 05 2024 22:02 -
I use mine for quite different things on different days... like using the trails in my GPS prove it wasn't me poaching. :eek: :suspect:
😂
We used the tracks to get us back to the lodge in Sweden
With out it we would still be searching now
That Perkins !!! 😂
Mark Phillips
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Re: Technology for Zander

Post by Mark Phillips »

J Nix wrote: Fri Dec 06 2024 00:04 -
Mark Phillips wrote: Sat Nov 23 2024 18:31 -
cookiesdaughtersdad wrote: Fri Nov 22 2024 21:59 -
Mark Phillips wrote: Fri Nov 22 2024 21:47 -
micky dolan wrote: Thu Nov 21 2024 11:28 -
The technology in this video is impressive and some great Zander caught .
But is this style of targeted fishing for you ?
Yes I've used an old hummingbird but more as a feature finder perhaps it's that I'm mainly a deadbait angler so this isn't for me .

The fishing starts at around 7 minutes ...

I'm using the same kit, for pelagic fishing it's simply a game changer. My view is that the odds are so stacked against you on some waters, than any edge you can find to shorten the path to success is worth it.

Another use for live sonar is to scout the water in front if you by putting the LVS34 transducer into forward mode. We use that feature all the time when drifting and casting. You can see where the depth changes and the features in front of you in a lot of detail. You can also see your lure dropping through the water column and if you angle the beam onto the line of the cast, watch it coming back all the way to the boat. It certainly enhances how you fish and combine that with a bow mounted, GPS guided electric trolling motor, you're next level in terms of boat control and being able to fish spots more effectively. I love the technology. I think I mentioned this before, but we were out last month and were watching on the screen a shoal of bream feeding on the bottom of a reservoir. You could see them tails up hoovering the bottom. Last trip out, we had a good laugh watching shoals of tiny perch all chasing after my mates lures. Probably happens a lot, just not seen someone get a follow off 50 odd fish at once!
Thats all very well, Mark but its still cheating! :laughs:

Cheers, Alan
hey, at least you get to see them ignoring you :lol:
:laughs: :laughs: :laughs:
Care to share the joke?
Piking Plonker
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